Do you guys like the 3/4 curl leh for Bighorn sheep?

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Hi,I was wondering if you guys like the leh for 3/4 curl bighorns?I think the bighorn sheep is one of the most thought after trophies in the world,alot of areas have the leh for 3/4 curls and alot of guys have no problem getting their rams,would you rather see some areas closed for general season and have an leh for full curls only,so some of these animals can reach their full potential.I am not an avid sheep hunter but I am curious.

[Brent T]

The 3/4 curl LEH's are for CALIFORNIA Bighorns only. They generally have a different horn configuration than Rocky Mountain bighorns. The Calis grow further backward and tend to flare out and they will generally broom sooner than Rockies. You won't find many rams other than the occassional 6 yr old that attain full curl with their lambtips still in tack. Rarely do older calis broom and still reach full curl so you would have most rams dying of old age before they met legal full curl status. There is the occassional ram that does broom and reach full curl but they are rare and not the norm.

The full curl general seasons don't give up many rams but as Shulaps can tell you it does happen occassionally.

BT

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Thanks for the clarification Brent,I wasnt aware that it it was difficult for the calis to reach full curl,should the Boone and Crockett have a seperate classifcation for these California Bighorns?

[Cariboo]

Originally Posted by Brent T

You won't find many rams other than the occassional 6 yr old that attain full curl with their lambtips still in tack.

Ain't that the truth. I was keeping tabs on a pair of nice Californian rams for 2 seasons waiting and hoping one or the other would go full curl before something got them or they broom-ed off.

As half-way expected both disappeared and one was confimed taken by a cat last winter and I suspect the other one was as well. (I swear to God I think those cats key in on the stench of those mature rams! )

[Brent T]

Originally Posted by BIGHUNTERFISH

Thanks for the clarification Brent,I wasnt aware that it it was difficult for the calis to reach full curl,should the Boone and Crockett have a seperate classifcation for these California Bighorns?

The British Columbia Record Book recognizes the difference in the two species but for some reason the B&C club does not. They're a little more "traditional" and don't like to change many things. I'm not 100% sure but I think they can differentiate between the two using DNA samples.
Also,what do you do with the previous records where the species is not noted in their records??
Being a newer club, I believe that SCI does have different catagories for the two species. I would have checked their website but I didn't want to have to sign up .
Californian bighorns count towards your "Bighorn" in the Grandslam Club. That's why those hunts demand such a pretty penny.

BT

[hoss]

3/4 l.e.h. or full curl g.o.s. - that is the question. In the Ashnola, there is a good population of sheep but for much of their range it is an under utilized resource. I ask you this. If a person draws a tag thru leh once every 10 years, how does that person become a sheep hunter? We wonder why hunter numbers are going down each year (except last year) for the past couple decades. Simple, we are making it harder and harder for ourselves to hunt. As Al Martin has said many times, he wants residents to have the opportunity to hunt.
We have people come to the Ashnola who know nothing of sheep hunting (like me), but how in the name of goodness are we going to learn about sheep hunting if we don't have the opportunity!! I have been putting in for 17 years!!!! -nada!!!!
I recognize that there are very few full curl california's, however, that does not mean it doesn't happen, there is the conservation issue looked after and there is the opportunity to hunt also looked after.
We need to get rid of these roadblocks we keep putting up for ourselves in the wildlife mgmt.

[Fisher-Dude]

Originally Posted by hoss

3/4 l.e.h. or full curl g.o.s. - that is the question. In the Ashnola, there is a good population of sheep but for much of their range it is an under utilized resource. I ask you this. If a person draws a tag thru leh once every 10 years, how does that person become a sheep hunter? We wonder why hunter numbers are going down each year (except last year) for the past couple decades. Simple, we are making it harder and harder for ourselves to hunt. As Al Martin has said many times, he wants residents to have the opportunity to hunt.
We have people come to the Ashnola who know nothing of sheep hunting (like me), but how in the name of goodness are we going to learn about sheep hunting if we don't have the opportunity!! I have been putting in for 17 years!!!! -nada!!!!
I recognize that there are very few full curl california's, however, that does not mean it doesn't happen, there is the conservation issue looked after and there is the opportunity to hunt also looked after.
We need to get rid of these roadblocks we keep putting up for ourselves in the wildlife mgmt.

You make some good points there hoss. Goat Guy's study about declining hunter numbers raised a number of similar points. If the opportunity is there, we will hunt. It's like looking for a 2 point moose here in the Okanagan...not many get shot but guys go looking for them anyways.

The biologists seem reluctant to open up our seasons even a little bit. They may be afraid of the bad rap they could get if the harvest is higher than they expected. We have about 50% of the hunters we had in the early 80's, and game populations at least as strong as they were then. Something doesn't add up.

[Brent T]

You should head down to Crater on Sept long weekend. There's an amazing amount of activity going on. People joy riding, people hiking, people hunting, people scouting for upcoming draws. Those animals get enough pressure with the current situation. Throw an GOS full curl down down there and it would be a friggen ZOO!!
There is a lot more country in 8-03B and not as much access so the pressure is not near as bad but it would still be very busy.
If you want to become a sheep hunter head over there and do some scouting during the season so when you're finally drawn you'll be ready to go. I was drawn in 2002 and have also been down there in 2004 and 2005 to help out other people I know. I also know someone that was drawn this year so I'll be helping out when I can. That's 4 out of 5 years that I can participate on a sheep hunt. Whether I'm the one with the tag in my pocket or not it's still a sheep hunt and fun just to be there.
Grab yourself a mule deer tag and get out there......or head north or to Spences or to the Fraser or to the East Kootenays. There are still many opportunities to become sheep hunter in this great province. LEH's are in place for a reason.

BT

[Fisher-Dude]

Quite true. I wouldn't advocate opening a season in an area that would produce a gong show. But there are areas (and other species) that could easily withstand a GOS to provide opportunity. If more areas are open, it helps to spread the pressure out over a larger area to avoid the gong shows. The Ashnola may not be suited to a GOS but there are areas in the West and East Kootenays that may do the trick.

[AlexB]

Hoss

If you want to become a sheep hunter why do you need a LEH. In the Kootenays the season runs from Sept 10 to Oct. 25. Hunt all you want, no need for a LEH. Spences Bridge in 3-17 has pretty much the same season. North of Spences you can hunt Cali's From Sep.10 to Oct 20. No LEH required.

Up north Stones start on Aug. 1 and go to Oct.15 once again no LEH required (not yet anyway).

I ask the question again why do you need an LEH to hunt sheep.

Most people think an LEH is a guarentee at a sheep. I personally know a few people that got region 3 LEH (1:50 odds) and thought the sheep would be standing there for them to walk up and shoot. One guy I know knew I had hunted in the area and asked for some help. I told him I was going to head out for the opener on Sept. 10 and if I saw a nice 3/4 curl I would give him a call and tell him where I saw him. He asked me what draw I had. I told him I did not have a draw. He was still puzzled that I was going sheep hunting. I told him there was a regular season for full curls that actually opened up ten days before his tag. I never saw him again till after the season and asked how he made out. He said he did not even go because he figured with a regular season all the sheep would be chased around. He did not know there was a regular season over lapping the LEH. Once again another tag wasted.

Most people start their sheep hunting with an LEH. If you have never hunted sheep getting that tag (after x amount of years) may be a waste becuase you have never hunted the sheep or even gone to the area to scout them out.

If I were you get out and start sheep hunting, get to know the animals, meet other hunters in the field (trust me you will) so when you get that tag your chances for success will be greater.

Alex

[Soup]

Originally Posted by BIGHUNTERFISH

Hi,I was wondering if you guys like the leh for 3/4 curl bighorns?I think the bighorn sheep is one of the most thought after trophies in the world,alot of areas have the leh for 3/4 curls and alot of guys have no problem getting their rams,would you rather see some areas closed for general season and have an leh for full curls only,so some of these animals can reach their full potential.I am not an avid sheep hunter but I am curious.

Hmm...looks like I am going to find out, I'll let you know in October

[Brent T]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Hoss

If you want to become a sheep hunter why do you need a LEH. In the Kootenays the season runs from Sept 10 to Oct. 25. Hunt all you want, no need for a LEH. Spences Bridge in 3-17 has pretty much the same season. North of Spences you can hunt Cali's From Sep.10 to Oct 20. No LEH required.

Up north Stones start on Aug. 1 and go to Oct.15 once again no LEH required (not yet anyway).

I ask the question again why do you need an LEH to hunt sheep.

Most people think an LEH is a guarentee at a sheep. I personally know a few people that got region 3 LEH (1:50 odds) and thought the sheep would be standing there for them to walk up and shoot. One guy I know knew I had hunted in the area and asked for some help. I told him I was going to head out for the opener on Sept. 10 and if I saw a nice 3/4 curl I would give him a call and tell him where I saw him. He asked me what draw I had. I told him I did not have a draw. He was still puzzled that I was going sheep hunting. I told him there was a regular season for full curls that actually opened up ten days before his tag. I never saw him again till after the season and asked how he made out. He said he did not even go because he figured with a regular season all the sheep would be chased around. He did not know there was a regular season over lapping the LEH. Once again another tag wasted.

Most people start their sheep hunting with an LEH. If you have never hunted sheep getting that tag (after x amount of years) may be a waste becuase you have never hunted the sheep or even gone to the area to scout them out.

If I were you get out and start sheep hunting, get to know the animals, meet other hunters in the field (trust me you will) so when you get that tag your chances for success will be greater.

Alex

Very well stated!

[hoss]

You know, you all raise some good, valid points. However, the local guide told me that he ran into 3 resident hunters on the Snowy side of the Ashnola last fall. To me that is an under utilized resource! Crater is a zoo - no doubt about it. Only 2 rams were shot there last year, I believe. One by the guide. Oh yes, I hike that area and watch sheep every time I go. I live 4 miles from the Ashnola. And yes, I do go north and hunt stones as well. All I am saying is that we should not be making it harder for ourselves. Snowy is very hard to access, and it would not be a gong show there.

[Flinch]

One thing many guys overlook when they ask to have any give LEH removed is that if we remove a certain LEH and make it a GOS you now create more pressure on the existing LEH's. If you think it is hard to draw a tag for sheep now, try taking converting all the Dall, Stone and bighorn LEH's to general seasons but leave Salmo, Phillips Cr and Kamloops Lk on LEH and watch what happens to the odds. Then you want to start a "new" hunt where there is a small pop (like Vaseaux) and what are the chances of a local guy getting drawn? I think we need more LEH's to spread out the odds and allow people more chances of getting drawn.

New hunters don't cut their teeth on sheep so I don't think we are keeping new hunter numbers dow by having sheep LEH's.

Just my opinion

[Goat Guy]

Originally Posted by hoss

You know, you all raise some good, valid points. However, the local guide told me that he ran into 3 resident hunters on the Snowy side of the Ashnola last fall. To me that is an under utilized resource! Crater is a zoo - no doubt about it. Only 2 rams were shot there last year, I believe. One by the guide. Oh yes, I hike that area and watch sheep every time I go. I live 4 miles from the Ashnola. And yes, I do go north and hunt stones as well. All I am saying is that we should not be making it harder for ourselves. Snowy is very hard to access, and it would not be a gong show there.

Reason the outfitter/guides only ran into 3 residents is because the guys that get draws are road hunters on horses. Resis don't know where to go on either side and end up hunting the 'pretty' country - and it is crowded there. If half the guys knew what they were doing they'd be into sheep and the outfitter would be into some competition. Maybe the solution would be to help the resis out on education etc.,

Scouting doesn't do a whole lot of good unless you're there for opening day. Once the shooting starts the rams bail.

Some of the guys who go on the hunts regularly know where the sheep go once the shooting starts; they are the succesful ones.

As far as the topic goes Brent T was right. Most of the sheep that are taken in full curl Cali seasons are 6 year old dinks; unfortunate, but that's the way it goes.